Wednesday, April 13, 2005


Government Square Bus Stop Upgrade

Thank goodness... I've been hearing about this for what seems like 5 years, and it looks like the ugly 5th St bus depot is finally going to get an overhaul! It'll be a nice improvement to the area, especially with the adjacent overhaul of Fountain Square.

Specifically, what is so ugly about the present bus stop?

Is the so-called improvements worth $9,200,000.? If you and those that feel the way that you do had to pay for it, would you?

This is what happens when government steals from the people then uses the loot to pay for loyalty.

This is like the city business committee declaring that moving the fountain and decorating the square will revitalize downtown.
It must be rough being you Sour Kraut. Always so much to be upset and angry about. I notice you didn't take me up on my last offer to meet with the folks at Findlay Market.

Well I am impressed by your 'semi-knowledge' of the issues. You at least 'try' to be informed. The 'city business commitee' you are mentioning is the 3CDC (Cincinnati Center City Development Corporation), a non-profit set up to look at Fountain Square, OTR and The Banks development. Moving the fountain is something that has to be done, and changing it's location actually REDUCES the project cost. You see, the garage under fountain square to remain usable needs to have a new water proofing completed at the Fountain Square Surface. So you prep the area north of the fountain, then move the fountain to that location, then prep the area that the fountain now sits on. If you want the fountain back where it now sits you'd actually have to move it BACK (a second move that would cost extra). So unless you are indicating we should seal off the Fountain Square garage, then I moving the fountain IS a good idea.

But on this topic... well the money comes mostly from state and federal sources. I agree that overall taxes should be lower, but the fact is that if this money isn't used in Cincinnati, it will be used elsewhere. There have been a number of pedestrian, and vehicle accidents in the last 10 years based on buses pulling out onto 5th St. This new configuration will result in a safer environment for the citizens of downtown. It's just an added benefit that we are getting ride of the ugly 70's architecture. We are also increasing the capacity, as the number of buses that are processed there now actually exceeds what it can handle and was designed for.

You tell me, what would get you to come downtown? I suspect you don't come down much (perhaps for work). What neighborhood do you live in?
I love Government Square as is. Sure, they could clean it up a bit, but that wouldn't cost much at all. The new design looks really silly, by the way.
I live in Walnut Hills, you wanna make sumthin of it?

Anyway, what do you mean when you say that: "... well the money comes mostly from state and federal sources." ?
That is the kind of thinking that makes taxes high and the federal government stronger. Do you think that the feds grow that money on the cherry trees?

I don't want to get into the engineering problems of the fountain but my immediate thought is that perhaps the waterproofing or the design wasn't done well in the first place. This country doesn't know crap about concrete anyway.

And what do you mean by " It's just an added benefit that we are getting ride of the ugly 70's architecture." How American of you! If it is 25 years old , it must be replaced because it is ugly. I never understood why something is neat so long as it isn't twenty years old. You must make marketing people happy. Maybe that is why the garage leaks; we can't design anything to last more than twenty-five years.

About you offer about Findlay Market, you need to refresh my memory. I was away for a week, during which I checked out the market in St. Louis and did talk to the manager there. She had the same mentality; she wants to open on Sundays too. St. Louis had better produce than Findlay but their fish and meats sucked. Overall the market sucked there and it is in a residential renaissance area. There is no excuse for what I saw there. Even their building is historically accurate. In fairness, I went on a Thursday but their facilities would not have improved by Saturday.

Oh, as I predicted when it opened, Pleasant Ridge Market closed. I don't know who comes up with these ideas. My man Nietzsche said once the convictions are a greater threat to truth than ignorance. He could have included half-assed citizen developements that are government sponsored. If they had to use their own money, there would be more less failures.

To get me to come downtown, I would have to have something to come downtown for. There used to be a spirit and ambiance downtown. and there used to be a spirit in Cincinnati; it is gone. It would take too much time and thought to describe it here and now. Cincinnati is going the same as many other large cities and it will take some with balls and brains and charisma to make it happen with the support of a lot of people.
Wow, great name sour kraut. You could not come up with a single thing to get you downtown but if someone with balls, brains, and charisma does all the work it might get your sorry ass down there. Kind of like when if the reds win the playoffs, you would be crying for tickets to the world series. Joe, love your site and keep going in the same positive fashion. When things improve, we can only hope sour kraut and his attitude stay away. I haven't posted before but after reading this idiots post felt like something needed to be said. The world has a million critics and few leaders.
That bus depot is a major high-transit area, and it needs to be maintained at the very least. You've got thousands of people going through there on a daily basis, and large numbers of buses. These types of improvements to infrastructure can only be done by the government, and if they are not done, these facilities fall apart.

Also the snotty comments from 'Sour Kraut' about the Pleasant Ridge Market are almost spectacularly ill-informed. Try a Google search before you run your mouth. The market was not a government sponsored effort, and plenty of well-intentioned people lost their own money - something which I'm sure will give you great pleasure, since you make it clear you thrive on a cynical (but ignorant) mix of arrogance and negativity.

And what kind of pompous dink goes around quoting Nietzsche in a blog comment?
Sour... I actually don't even know why I am spending 5 minutes to respond to you. If they did nothing with Govt Square or Fountain Square, you'd be complaining that nothing ever happens in Cincinnati. That things are run down, and that there is nothing attractive down there.

But then when things do happen you complain that it's a waste of money/time. Whether those be government funded projects (Stadia, CAC, Fountain Square, Bus Depot) or project projects (Condo developments, New Restaurants, Pleasant Ridge Market, etc).

I have an idea, instead of focuses on what is wrong with every project in the city (gee, I wonder why the 'Spirit of Cincinnati' is gone, could it have anything to do with folks like you that have nothing but negative things to say about our city, our government, and our communities?), why don't you provide some constructive criticism, talk and promote things you DO think are positive, and get out of your damn house and get involved in the community that you see as having so much potential, but so little progress.

And on Findlay Market. Check my response to your diatribe about the market. I offered to get you connected with the Operations Director of the Findlay Market to provide your input (and your TIME) to make things better.

In addition on May 1st, Give Back Cincinnati is partnering with Keep Cincinnati Beautiful to clean up the area South of the Market. Why don't you get out of your house and make some POSITIVE change in our community! Here, I'll save you some time, this is a link to find out about the project and sign up:
Have you heard? Things are really happening in Cincinnati. We got a new bus stop!

If that is all that is happening and your happy, then you need to raise your expectations.

I have already spoken with the woman in the management office; no I didn't talk to the guy boss and what would be the need. They don't need to talk to me, they need to talk to the vendors. More accurately would be that they need to listen to the vendors. Actually it is a little late for that because the city hasn't listened over the past few years. The present management should have been hired by the vendors and not some bureaucrats at city hall.

I drove by Pleasant Ridge market today and noticed they were open on Sundays. Today at Findlay they had a sign announcing they will be open on Sundays. Sundays did not make Plesnat Ridge work, but those managers think it will work for Findlay. The vendors did not want it but the manager did. Does that tell you anything about the worth of talking to these people?

To your suggestion that I help clean up the area south of Findlay: Why?

No one from the market normally ventures south of the market. Hell only a very few patronize the asian market or the Pigg place on the south side of Elder.
The market or the city pays an army of people to sweep up around the market. Presently none of them ever break a sweat. They are very courteous but they are not used effectively. Why don't you have them do what they are being paid for?

More important than the trash, you need to clean up the poverty around the market. And a lot of the blame for the trash is city management,which literally keep improvements from happening, but I am not going to educate you on this point here. Maybe you need to talk to the lady that keeps Clean Cincinnati going; she makes it happen in spite of the city administration.
Brendan is correct and I was wwrong on the financing of Ridge Market. The only thing the city did was a million dollar streetscape. The Pleasant Ridge people scraped and borrowed and bought the building and then fixed it up. I apologize.

But is was still a bad idea based on convictions. IGA moved out for reasons and IGA reasons were based on a professional evaluation. PR tried to defy free market forces with convictions and rose-colored glasses.

But PR essentially put it together themselves and that in itself is a feat.
If the state were to construct a new highway interchange and roadway so that it will connect to an area that is remote and undeveloped such as the area where the new Northern Kentucky Speedway is located and if that area is mostly owned by the Muslim church and that is was the area where the Muslim planned to build a church, what do think the public reaction would be?

The church people would defend this interchange as simply being a public road and needed for public safety.

Now it is argued that no public money went into the Ridge Market but there was a million dollar streetscape???

I have read this entire post and find it hard to understand what this Sour guy or some of the others are for or hear any suggestions to make things better. Joe, seems like your are blessed with critics and we all know the world needs far less critics and far more leaders.

Maybe you should start a post that has the ten things you would do to make the city better and all have to be positive. Challenge folks to come up with their own and assemble the ten best.
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